Episode #31 is a discussion between Barbara Zeman and Shirley Paulson about an often unknown but potent code of silence in the church.
Barbara begins the conversation by wondering aloud why it is that when women are given the chance to exercise leadership or authority in a 
religious community, men almost always want to dominate. It’s a phenomenon in society, but it seems to be especially notable within the church context.
For sure, this is not a male-bashing conversation, because we both acknowledge there are men who are very supportive of women and their authority. Also, most men we know are kind and good men. There seems to be something working within the system that puts men and women both in the position of having to defend the subordination of women.
As we probed the issues involved, we also asked ourselves what we know of Christ that is bringing resolution. We’re convinced that injustice must be overthrown by the divine law of justice; and that no one is left out of the good given by God. But we also recognize that without saying something or objecting to it, the evil force would continue to suppress. There is a code of silence that preserves the unjust status quo. No one made it up or ordered anyone to agree to it, but it operates in such a way that both men and women feel very threatened by it. We are eager to expose the problem for the purpose of shedding light for the benefit of everyone.
Please let us know what you think about this. We’re convinced Christ is breaking this form of injustice, and we’d love to hear what experiences you’ve had, big or little, that may give evidence of progress.
For related links:
- Paper by N.T.Wright: “Men, Women, and the Church
- Talk by Karen King: Women in Ancient Christianity: the New Discoveries
#1 by Tawny on December 6th, 2010 - 6:17 pm
Thank you for your fresh way of looking at the idea of fear of lack empowers the need for power. I have been working recently with the idea of not thinking as a victim and your talk showed light on why someone would want to try to act in an unkind way. So excited to ponder this! Be fun to share at our Bible study too as we have been exploring Mark and Jesus’ feeding of the multitudes. Thank you!
#2 by Gordon on February 10th, 2011 - 10:06 am
First of all, I want to give a disclaimer that it is in no way my intent to offend or inflame anyone who is currently struggling with feelings of being oppressed or excluded. To me it goes without saying that Barbara’s experience of being told she cannot participate in her church is very clearly wrong.
Now…I want to share my thoughts, comments, and observations after listening to this podcast. I should tell you that I am male. I am not a feminist, but I am a Christian Scientist. I was very impressed by much of what was said in this talk, but also occasionally disappointed at two recurring tendencies: the tendency to want to associate this evil of exclusion / oppression / dominance solely with men, and the tendency to harbor resentment, however small, for those that have sinned.
Maybe 11 minutes (or so) into the talk, Shirley said this:
“That’s the thing that amazes me…the people who are in a dominant position hardly ever notice that they are not only not doing something to somebody else, but they feel like they are good people.”
Well first of all…they are good people! God didn’t create “bad people.” I understand that this may seem overly simplistic, but from what I’ve learned in Christian Science, if you start with the premise that you’ve got both good and evil commingling, you aren’t going to come up with very positive results, and you aren’t going to find healing. You always have to start with the premise that God is good, and God is all.
But I will admit that I have, actually, noticed this same pattern with others in my own life as well. Believe it or not, I can completely empathize with your statement there–that feeling that someone has wronged you in an unfair way, and how they’re often completely blind to the fact that they’ve done anything wrong at all. However, in my own personal experience, those “others” who have wronged me or excluded me from something have not been men–they’ve actually been women. This leads me to reason that this condition of dominance and abuse of power is not in any way tied to gender, race, or any other demographic, but is purely what we call in Christian Science a “false belief.” An impersonal evil.
When I was listening to that part, a passage from the book Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy came to mind. I’d like to share it with you:
“Human sense may well marvel at discord, while, to a diviner sense, harmony is the real and discord the unreal. We may well be astonished at sin, sickness, and death. We may well be perplexed at human fear; and still more astounded at hatred, which lifts its hydra head, showing its horns in the many inventions of evil. But why should we stand aghast at nothingness?”
What I feel Mrs. Eddy was saying in this passage was that it’s very easy to be impressed by evil. It’s very easy to take offense to evil when it seems to be targeted specifically at you. However, ultimately all forms of evil are nothing when brought under the healing light of God. Darkness flees before the light.
When the discussion moved on to say that the statements the person in the dominant position makes can be very insidious–and can look good on the surface when in fact they aren’t–my immediate thought was, “well that’s not what God is seeing!” I wonder if the idea that we should be constantly analyzing and running over with a fine tooth comb our brothers’ actions for their imperfections is really the most Christian thing to do. I acknowledge that I too have been guilty of this myself on plenty of occasions, as most people probably have. Make no mistake: I’m not claiming to be humanly perfect. I’ve had times where I’ve really questioned if someone was being genuine with me. And not without good reason: many of those times, they haven’t! and their statements have been surface-level statements only. I can relate to the idea of really wanting to evaluate whether someone is saying something because they really mean it, or whether they’re saying something just because it makes them look good. However, I do believe that it is a downward tendency of “the enemy” to get people to buy into the drama–to want to always get in the last word, to assign blame, and to keep adding more fuel to the fire. During any of the times, in my own experience, where I’ve felt justified by insisting that another person was not being genuine or fair to me, that has only seemed to make them want to exclude me all that much more. That has only seemed to make things worse, without exception.
In cases where I have felt trapped or condemned by someone else’s statements or actions, ultimately the one and only thing that has ever proved helpful at all was first to remember Christ’s command to “bless those that curse you,” and then to remember that I (or anyone else) can never be deprived of anything good, because God bestows all good gifts and they cannot be taken away. Rather than taking offense at the other person, what has helped has been to try and see them how God is seeing them–understanding that they are loved, appreciated, cherished, adored–and then reaffirming that that is also true about myself. This whole concept of analyzing what another person is doing wrong just never seems to bring genuine healing to any situation.
So I suppose my question to you would be: is the banter about how men have sinned and oppressed and wronged people ultimately doing any good? Believe me, if you got me going I could go on and on about how women have wronged me, but I don’t really think it would accomplish much.
#3 by Barelohim on November 15th, 2011 - 12:50 pm
Jesus had Paul write that a woman was not to teach or exercise authority over the man.
This statement of the Holy Spirit has been taken so out of whack, it is no wonder there is controversy over it.
Paul is not saying that woman can’t teach……! He is saying it is the subject, that is not to be taught or practiced… Women are not to have authority over the man. Otherwise it gives the wrong impression of Christ and His Bride. The Bride of Christ does not have authority over the Bridegroom. Ephesians goes further and is comparing the woman and man, as to head and body. The man being the head, and woman as the body.
The man is to care for his body, and nourish and cherish and provide for her/it, as Christ does the Bride, the Church. BUT the head is not to be ruled by the body, but the body is to voluntarily submit to the head.
Lordship is never to be taken, but it is to be *given* voluntarily by the submission of the other. This can only take place when the one doing the submitting is in agreement and trusting that the one given Lordship has their best intersts at heart.
It is as we, submit to our Bridegroom, He becomes our Lord. Otherwise, we are still lord.
Barelohm.
#4 by Gordon on January 5th, 2012 - 9:51 am
Barelohim, your comment popped up in my email because I also left a comment here awhile ago. I agree with you only as far as you say that we all individually need to submit ourselves to Christ, but I do NOT agree with the implication that a woman needs to submit herself in an inferior position to the man. Marriage is about BOTH partners supporting each other and needs to be grounded in EQUALITY and mutual respect.
I learned a lot of interesting information about the letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians a little while ago, from my teacher of Christian Science. First, did you know that there is debate among Biblical scholars as to whether Paul was actually the one who wrote the couple of verses about women “keeping silence” in churches at all? Based on their research, many scholars feel like these verses in particular were added in by later translators, and never by St. Paul himself.
But even if he did write those verses, you also have to consider the context. The church at Corinth was known for its loose morals, so some scholars feel this verse was actually a protection to some of the women in that church. By not talking, the men wouldn’t have thought of them as much and so wouldn’t be as tempted to think lustfully about them during church services. Obviously that’s not really an ideal treatment in today’s society, but we have come a long way.
Thirdly, if you take away a literal interpretation of those passages, you could also interpret the “keep silence” passages to mean, spiritually, to forever silence a lower concept of womanhood, a concept that defines women as a symbol of lust and stupidity, and instead to recognize the womanhood of God as the messenger of Christ. I do realize that some may find that interpretation a bit of a stretch, but personally I’m inclined to take into consideration the conclusion some scholars have had that it wasn’t actually Paul who wrote those verses at all, but that they were later additions by misguided translators.
#5 by barelohim on January 5th, 2012 - 12:37 pm
Chapter 3
1 In like manner, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, even if any obey not the word, they may without the word be gained by the behavior of their wives;
2 beholding your chaste behavior coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be the outward adorning of braiding the hair, and of wearing jewels of gold, or of putting on apparel;
4 but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible apparel of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner aforetime the holy women also, who hoped in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:
6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose children ye now are, if ye do well, and are not put in fear by any terror.
7 Ye husbands, in like manner, dwell with your wives according to knowledge, giving honor unto the woman, as unto the weaker vessel, as being also joint-heirs of the grace of life; to the end that your prayers be not hindered.
All scripture was inspired, no matter at whose hand it was penned!
” In like manner!” Chapter two needs be read as well, for context.
The lesson in Romans 13 bears witness to this subjection, and why subjection is so necessary… Romans 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
Lordship is never to be taken, but it is to be *given* voluntarily by the submission of the other. This takes place when the one doing the submitting is in agreement and trusting that the one given Lordship has their best intersts at heart.
It is as we, submit to our Bridegroom, He becomes our Lord. Otherwise, we are still lord.
He may be Saviour, but is He Lord?
Barelohm.